How do you like Linux on Mac

[Jeffrey A Farris]

I'm buying a new computer and wonder how people like running Linux on a
Mac. Right now I'm running Linux on a Dell, but the Apple hardware looks a
lot nicer than anything I see in the PC world. When I open a Power Mac
G4 or G5 the interior looks clean and easy to expand, whereas after I
fight to open up the case on my Dell it's a tangle of wires and adding new
drives is a real hassle. Plus the Macs are much more expandable than any
PC's I've seen.

If I go the Mac route I'm leaning towards the dual processor 1.25 G4.
While I would us OSX some, 95% of my time would be in Linux. Do OSX and
Linux co-exist well on a dual boot computer? Any input would be
appreciated.

[David Cantrell]

Post by Jeffrey A Farris
I'm buying a new computer and wonder how people like running Linux on a
Mac. Right now I'm running Linux on a Dell, but the Apple hardware looks a
lot nicer than anything I see in the PC world. When I open a Power Mac
G4 or G5 the interior looks clean and easy to expand, whereas after I
fight to open up the case on my Dell it's a tangle of wires and adding new
drives is a real hassle. Plus the Macs are much more expandable than any
PC's I've seen.
If I go the Mac route I'm leaning towards the dual processor 1.25 G4.
While I would us OSX some, 95% of my time would be in Linux. Do OSX and
Linux co-exist well on a dual boot computer? Any input would be
appreciated.

I've been using Macs as my sole platform ever since I bought an iBook in
2001. MacOS X looked interesting, so I bought the iBook. After a year
of frustration with OS X, I went back to Linux. I still have the iBook
and also have a dual 1Ghz G4, both run Linux. I have no MacOS X
partitions.

The Mac hardware is a wonderful platform. The systems are built well in
my opinion and Linux works great on them. I had to dump the NVIDIA
graphics adapter in the Power Mac, but once I replaced it with an ATI, X
ran just fine.

At one point I had OS X installed alongside Linux. Yaboot was able to
boot between the two with no problems.

Macs are probably the second-best supported platform for Linux, next to
x86. But the Mac looks nicer and is easier to work with. Plus, it's
like a "real" Unix workstation with its OpenFirmware and sane hardware
design.

[Rod Smith]

Post by Jeffrey A Farris
I'm buying a new computer and wonder how people like running Linux on a
Mac.

I've got an old (266MHz) iMac, on which I run Mac OS 8.6, Mac OS X 10.3,
and Debian GNU/Linux. I also run Linux on a few x86 boxes and on an AMD64
system. Overall, Linux on the iMac is pretty good, but because it's a PPC
CPU, there are a few things it just can't do. Most notably, most
commercial programs for Linux (Opera, Adobe Acrobat Reader, Macromedia
Flash Player, etc.) are available only as x86 binaries. You also can't
use WINE to run Windows programs, although you can use MoL to run Mac OS
programs. (There's also an effort underway to wed WINE to an x86 CPU
emulator, but AFAIK that's not really useable yet.) Depending upon your
needs, these limitations may be anywhere from unimportant to
"deal-breakers." You'll have to be the judge for yourself. Open source
programs are seldom problems -- in fact, I can't think of any examples,
although there are probably a few obscure programs that don't compile on
PPC.

Post by Jeffrey A Farris
Right now I'm running Linux on a Dell, but the Apple hardware looks a
lot nicer than anything I see in the PC world. When I open a Power Mac
G4 or G5 the interior looks clean and easy to expand, whereas after I
fight to open up the case on my Dell it's a tangle of wires and adding new
drives is a real hassle. Plus the Macs are much more expandable than any
PC's I've seen.

Don't judge this based on just the Power Macs vs. a single Dell system.
Certainly both types will have the same basic components (motherboard,
hard disk, etc.). If your main gripe is about the interior layout and
case, I'm sure you could find an x86 PC with a layout that's as clean as
what you're seeing in the Macs. Traditional x86 cases also vary a lot in
quality, and some are very good. I don't have any specific
recommendations for x86 PCs with "clean" interiors, though.

Post by Jeffrey A Farris
If I go the Mac route I'm leaning towards the dual processor 1.25 G4.
While I would us OSX some, 95% of my time would be in Linux. Do OSX and
Linux co-exist well on a dual boot computer? Any input would be
appreciated.

Yes, you can dual-boot Linux and Mac OS X. I can't speak to the specific
model you mention, though; there could be some quirk(s) I don't know
about.

Overall, my inclination is to suggest buying an x86 computer rather than
a Mac if your goal is to run Linux. (AMD64 is also an option if you want
a really fast system, although Linux on AMD64 is not quite as mature as
Linux on PPC or x86.) You'll get a faster machine for the same money in
the x86 world (or as fast a machine for less money), and you'll be able
to run those binary-only applications if you need them. IMHO, the
cost/speed factor is more important than how "clean" the interior is, and
you can probably find an x86 system with an interior that's nearly as, if
not absolutely as, "clean" as a Mac if you look hard enough or ask the
right people. OTOH, if you want to learn Mac OS X, or if you just want to
try a different architecture, or if you're just willing to spend the
extra bucks to have that Macintosh computer interior, Linux is certainly
stable and useable on PPC, so you won't be setting yourself up for
endless headaches by going this route.

[Jeffrey A Farris]

Thanks for the feedback, it helps a lot. Lack of Flash and the cost are
the only things I can see as potential deal breakers. Will have to think
about those two. The most important thing to know is that I won't be set
up for "endless headaches," which was my main concern.

One of the other comments mentioned the advantages of OpenFirmware. I will
have to check into that more.

[Thomas Armagost]

Post by Jeffrey A Farris
Thanks for the feedback, it helps a lot. Lack of Flash and the cost
are the only things I can see as potential deal breakers. Will have
to think about those two. The most important thing to know is that
I won't be set up for "endless headaches," which was my main
concern.
One of the other comments mentioned the advantages of OpenFirmware.
I will have to check into that more.

If you're thinking about buying a new machine, you might want to
consider this--you can buy a new Apple desktop or notebook with YDL
pre-installed, and the machine costs no more than it would if you
bought it directly from Apple. Sorry if I seem like a shill here.
I'm just a little worried that some folks are unaware of this choice.

<http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/products/apple/>

Geeks prefer to custom install Linux themselves. But the pre-install
option does exist. Yellow Dog rules the G4 and G5 personal desktop
Linux market, IMHO.

[Duke Robillard]

Post by Rod Smith

Post by Jeffrey A Farris
G4 or G5 the interior looks clean and easy to expand, whereas after I
fight to open up the case on my Dell it's a tangle of wires and adding new
drives is a real hassle. Plus the Macs are much more expandable than any
PC's I've seen.

Don't judge this based on just the Power Macs vs. a single Dell system.
Certainly both types will have the same basic components (motherboard,
hard disk, etc.). If your main gripe is about the interior layout and
case, I'm sure you could find an x86 PC with a layout that's as clean as
what you're seeing in the Macs. Traditional x86 cases also vary a lot in
quality, and some are very good. I don't have any specific
recommendations for x86 PCs with "clean" interiors, though.

Here are two:

http://www.voodoopc.com/
http://www.alienware.com/

Post by Rod Smith

Post by Jeffrey A Farris
If I go the Mac route I'm leaning towards the dual processor 1.25 G4.
While I would us OSX some, 95% of my time would be in Linux. Do OSX and
Linux co-exist well on a dual boot computer? Any input would be
appreciated.

I've got OS X and Yellow Dog Linux dual-bootin' on my Titanium
Powerbook, and everything is fine.

I got my first Mac at the beginning of January. I was in the same
situation you are--I was a Linux guy, and I wanted to try a Mac.
However, I did now if that OS X was gonna be any good, so I went
through some effort to make sure I could run Linux on it, to make
sure I could use the laptop.

As it's turned out, I hardly boot Linux...only when I want to run
some stuff that I don't have Mac OS X ports for. Mac OS X is very
nice.

Duke

[Jack Malmostoso]

Post by Jeffrey A Farris
I'm buying a new computer and wonder how people like running Linux on a
Mac.

Well... I like it great! Just take a look:
http://malmostoso.altervista.org/ibook

I have installed YDL to have a common platform between my home and
on-the-road systems, and I am completely satisfied.
As it's been pointed the lack of certain commercial programs (flash or 3d
graphics) is a minus, but as long as you look for OSS you can compile just
about everything on your system.

Post by Jeffrey A Farris
Do OSX and Linux co-exist well on a dual boot computer?

I've never seen them fighting :-)
I use OSX for those little things I cannot do with linux (that is, play
some games and watch movies I download: DVDs play just fine with Ogle),
but mainly I boot Linux.

Bye!

[David Cantrell]

Post by Jack Malmostoso

Post by Jeffrey A Farris
I'm buying a new computer and wonder how people like running Linux on a
Mac.

http://malmostoso.altervista.org/ibook
I have installed YDL to have a common platform between my home and
on-the-road systems, and I am completely satisfied.
As it's been pointed the lack of certain commercial programs (flash or 3d
graphics) is a minus, but as long as you look for OSS you can compile just
about everything on your system.

Flash has been the only thing I can't get for PowerPC Linux, but since I
don't care about flash, it wasn't a show stopper.

As an alternative to Acrobat Reader, consider xpdf or gpdf.

OpenOffice is available for PowerPC Linux as well as Java. We only have
J2SDK 1.3.1, but maybe that will change. I'm hoping the GNU gcj project
takes off.

Not sure what you meant about no 3d graphics, but ATI graphics adapters
work fine on a PPC system. I have a Radeon 8500 and Rage128 Mobility,
both with hardware DRI capabilities. GL apps run quickly on my aging
500 Mhz iBook. Steer clear of NVIDIA on PowerPC, that's where you won't
get good graphics support at all.

Post by Jack Malmostoso

Post by Jeffrey A Farris
Do OSX and Linux co-exist well on a dual boot computer?

I've never seen them fighting :-)
I use OSX for those little things I cannot do with linux (that is, play
some games and watch movies I download: DVDs play just fine with Ogle),
but mainly I boot Linux.

Mplayer and Xine work great on PPC Linux, but of course you can't use
the x86 Windows plugins. This hasn't prevented movie watching for me.

[Jack Malmostoso]

Post by David Cantrell
Flash has been the only thing I can't get for PowerPC Linux, but since I
don't care about flash, it wasn't a show stopper.

There's an interesting thread on gentoo forums about flash for ppc... I
should check it out. Anyway, I don't care much too.

Post by David Cantrell
Not sure what you meant about no 3d graphics, but ATI graphics adapters
work fine on a PPC system. I have a Radeon 8500 and Rage128 Mobility,
both with hardware DRI capabilities. GL apps run quickly on my aging
500 Mhz iBook. Steer clear of NVIDIA on PowerPC, that's where you won't
get good graphics support at all.

Unfortunately my iBook carries an ATi9200 that is not supported by DRI...
that's what I was talking about! Anyway, I agree: stay away from Nvidia!

Post by David Cantrell
Mplayer and Xine work great on PPC Linux, but of course you can't use
the x86 Windows plugins. This hasn't prevented movie watching for me.

My problem is still because of the lack of DRI: I use framebuffer and
Mplayer doesn't let me play movies fullscreen. No problem: reboot to OSX
and done.
Bye!

[David Cantrell]

Post by Jack Malmostoso

Post by David Cantrell
Flash has been the only thing I can't get for PowerPC Linux, but since I
don't care about flash, it wasn't a show stopper.

There's an interesting thread on gentoo forums about flash for ppc... I
should check it out. Anyway, I don't care much too.

I hear this is brought up from time to time, but it never really leads
anywhere. Someone post here if they get anywhere with Flash on PPC.

Post by Jack Malmostoso

Post by David Cantrell
Not sure what you meant about no 3d graphics, but ATI graphics adapters
work fine on a PPC system. I have a Radeon 8500 and Rage128 Mobility,
both with hardware DRI capabilities. GL apps run quickly on my aging
500 Mhz iBook. Steer clear of NVIDIA on PowerPC, that's where you won't
get good graphics support at all.

Unfortunately my iBook carries an ATi9200 that is not supported by DRI...
that's what I was talking about! Anyway, I agree: stay away from Nvidia!

Right right...I should think about current hardware when I say things.
:)

ATI is still the way to go. The 9200 will have support eventually, but
if you want something now, it's disappointing.

Post by Jack Malmostoso

Post by David Cantrell
Mplayer and Xine work great on PPC Linux, but of course you can't use
the x86 Windows plugins. This hasn't prevented movie watching for me.

My problem is still because of the lack of DRI: I use framebuffer and
Mplayer doesn't let me play movies fullscreen. No problem: reboot to OSX
and done.

True.

Another thing I forgot was Airport Extreme. Apple's current Airport
offerings do not work under Linux. Just like the previous Airport
cards, Apple used a well-known standard and changed the pinouts to make
Airport Extreme (PCMCIA for the old Airport, MiniPCI for the Airport
Extreme).

You cannot install a supported MiniPCI card in the Airport Extreme slot.
I hope Airport Extreme is eventually supported. If you want wireless,
older Airport is the only way to go...or third party PCMCIA or PCI.
This means new iBooks will have trouble with wireless unless you go with
one of those USB 802.11b adapters. These usually work fine in Linux,
but can be problematic.

[Jack Malmostoso]

Post by David Cantrell
I hear this is brought up from time to time, but it never really leads
anywhere. Someone post here if they get anywhere with Flash on PPC.

If I have some time I'll be trying it in the next few days. Not many
expectations though.

Post by David Cantrell
Right right...I should think about current hardware when I say things.
:)

;-)

Post by David Cantrell
Another thing I forgot was Airport Extreme.

Right, that sucks a lot.
Luckily there are a few USB WiFi dongles that work just fine on Linux.
Not that I need them, but it's nice to know they exist.

[Jeffrey A Farris]

No you don't sound like a shill at all. That's good to know an Apple
re-seller also supports Linux.

One other question here too, how well does Linux support the multiple
processors on the G4. No need for me to pay for the dual processor if
Linux only gives token support.

[David Cantrell]

Post by Jeffrey A Farris
No you don't sound like a shill at all. That's good to know an Apple
re-seller also supports Linux.
One other question here too, how well does Linux support the multiple
processors on the G4. No need for me to pay for the dual processor if
Linux only gives token support.

I have a dual G4 and SMP Linux support works fine. Better in 2.6 than
in 2.4, obviously, but you'll find SMP support on x86 and PPC to be on
par with each other.

[Daniel Boline]

Post by Jeffrey A Farris
I'm buying a new computer and wonder how people like running Linux on
a Mac. Right now I'm running Linux on a Dell, but the Apple hardware
looks a lot nicer than anything I see in the PC world. When I open a
Power Mac G4 or G5 the interior looks clean and easy to expand,
whereas after I fight to open up the case on my Dell it's a tangle of
wires and adding new drives is a real hassle. Plus the Macs are much
more expandable than any PC's I've seen.

Judging hardware based on how manufacturers arrange components in the
box is not an accurate measure of anything. A Mac tower is probably
more expandable than a cheap Dell, but then its very easy to build an
x86 thats as expandable as a Mac.

If you're going to go the Mac route, be clear on why you're doing it.
Better layout of machine, lower power consumption (ie more efficient
architecture).

Post by Jeffrey A Farris
If I go the Mac route I'm leaning towards the dual processor 1.25 G4.
While I would us OSX some, 95% of my time would be in Linux. Do OSX
and Linux co-exist well on a dual boot computer? Any input would be
appreciated.

There's something called MOL (Mac on Linux), which does for Mac OS9,X
what Wine does for windows (sort of). I don't know how well some
things work (like sound), but its supposed to work well.

[Joost Kremers]

Post by Daniel Boline
There's something called MOL (Mac on Linux), which does for Mac OS9,X
what Wine does for windows (sort of).

not really. MoL is an emulator: it allows you to run OS X within
linux. wine OTOH is an implementation of the windows API for linux. it
doesn't allow you to run windows, just windows apps.

Post by Daniel Boline
I don't know how well some
things work (like sound), but its supposed to work well.

it works very well for me, including sound. i just finished installing OS X
from within MoL, that's how well it works. ;-)

[Pascal Bourguignon]

Post by Joost Kremers

Post by Daniel Boline
There's something called MOL (Mac on Linux), which does for Mac OS9,X
what Wine does for windows (sort of).

not really. MoL is an emulator: it allows you to run OS X within
linux. wine OTOH is an implementation of the windows API for linux. it
doesn't allow you to run windows, just windows apps.

Not really. MOL is a virtualizer, ie. a virtual machine(*) lacking the
processor emulation. With MOL you can boot any ppc system. If it was
an emulator you could use MOL on x86 to run MacOSX/ppc.

Post by Joost Kremers

Post by Daniel Boline
I don't know how well some
things work (like sound), but its supposed to work well.

it works very well for me, including sound. i just finished installing OS X
from within MoL, that's how well it works. ;-)

It's lacking firewire. I can't use my iSight in MOL, I have to reboot MacOSX...

(*) It's a virtual machine in the sense of IBM VM or zVM.